Major General James G. Blunt

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Per WP:SNOW effect (closed by non-admin page mover) — DaxServer (t · m · e · c) 09:05, 19 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Nor'easter → Northeaster cyclone
• March 2018 nor'easter → March 2018 northeaster cyclone
• December 2020 nor'easter → December 2020 northeaster cyclone
• March 18–21, 1958, nor'easter → March 18–21, 1958, northeaster cyclone
• March 18–20, 1956, nor'easter → March 18–20, 1956, northeaster cyclone
• February 1987 nor'easter → February 1987 northeaster cyclone
• March 1969 nor'easter → March 1969 northeaster cyclone
• March 1960 nor'easter → March 1960 northeaster cyclone
• December 2003 nor'easter → December 2003 northeaster cyclone
• Early February 2016 nor'easter → Early February 2016 northeaster cyclone
• January 1961 nor'easter → January 1961 northeaster cyclone
• February 1995 nor'easter → February 1995 northeaster cyclone
• February 1952 nor'easter → February 1952 northeaster cyclone
• March 2010 nor'easter → March 2010 northeaster cyclone
• Late November 1984 nor'easter → Late November 1984 northeaster cyclone
• December 2000 nor'easter → December 2000 northeaster cyclone
• February 1969 nor'easter → February 1969 northeaster cyclone
• December 5–6, 2020, nor'easter → December 5–6, 2020, northeaster cyclone
• March 2014 nor'easter → March 2014 northeaster cyclone
• November 2012 nor'easter → November 2012 northeaster cyclone
• Black nor'easter → Black northeaster cyclone
• February 6–8, 2021, nor'easter → February 6–8, 2021, northeaster cyclone
• November 2009 nor'easter → November 2009 northeaster cyclone
• March 2013 nor'easter → March 2013 northeaster cyclone
• January 1992 nor'easter → January 1992 northeaster cyclone
• December 1960 nor'easter → December 1960 northeaster cyclone
• November 2006 nor'easter → November 2006 northeaster cyclone
• March 6–8, 2018 nor'easter → March 6–8, 2018 northeaster cyclone
• October 2021 nor'easter → October 2021 northeaster cyclone
• April 2021 nor'easter → April 2021 northeaster cyclone
• Christmas 1994 nor'easter → Christmas 1994 northeaster cyclone
• February 2014 nor'easter → February 2014 northeaster cyclone
• December 1969 nor'easter → December 1969 northeaster cyclone
• March 1–3, 2018 nor'easter → March 1–3, 2018 northeaster cyclone
• December 1992 nor'easter → December 1992 northeaster cyclone
• April 2007 nor'easter → April 2007 northeaster cyclone
• December 15–17, 2020, nor'easter → December 15–17, 2020, northeaster cyclone
• 2011 Halloween nor'easter → 2011 Halloween northeaster cyclone
• March 20–22, 2018 nor'easter → March 20–22, 2018 northeaster cyclone
• January 31 – February 3, 2021, nor'easter → January 31 – February 3, 2021, northeaster cyclone

– Per WP:RECOGNIZABILITY and MOS:COMMONALITY. While ngrams suggests that in recent years nor'easter has been more common, it is also not recognizable to most of the world. BilledMammal (talk) 06:17, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. "Northeaster cyclone" is showing me 19 total hits on Google. Google Trends searches over the last five years for "nor'easter" vs. "northeaster" (without cyclone, which doesn't show up at all) show 67% "nor'easter" in the US, 62% in Canada, and 43% in the UK, so it doesn't seem that the term is unknown in other regions. Even those numbers appear to be biased in favor of "northeaster", since the associated searches indicate that "northeaster" is usually a typo for users trying to get to Northeastern University. In addition these hit the US and Canada, so it's possible to argue that WP:TIES applies. If readers aren't familiar with "nor'easter", I don't think that "northeaster" would help them much; and a nor'easter is already a specific type of storm rather than an adjective, so "nor'easter cyclone" is a bit like saying "typhoon hurricane". Finally, reliable sources like the National Weather Service, National Geographic Society, CNN, National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration, New York Times, and Weather Channel all use "nor'easter". Dekimasuよ! 07:21, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Per WP:COMMONNAME. Additionally, since this is English Wikipedia, we skew towards English-language sources - how it is referred to in the rest of the world is not necessarily relevant, and requires real proof that "northeaster cyclone" is widely used. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 09:45, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose per MOS:TIES since these are storms that affect the east coast of the United States regularly. Noah, AA^Talk 11:02, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  These don't just relate to the United States; for example, Black nor'easter relates to Australia. In addition, we prioritize commonality and recognizably over ties; readers globally will better recognize "Northeaster cyclone" than they will "nor'easter". BilledMammal (talk) 12:11, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The WP:COMMONNAME of these storms is nor'easter and I will not support changing the titles when media sources do not refer to them as "northeaster cyclone". Additionally, the other people are right that you are essentially recommending a change to "hurricane typhoon". Noah, AA^Talk 12:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  "Nor'easter" and "nor-easter" appear in several of the Australian sources on Black nor'easter, whereas Google indicates that the phrase "black northeaster cyclone" has never been used anywhere prior to this move discussion. Dekimasuよ! 13:53, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  Not recently, as far as I can tell; sources from 50+ years ago use it, but more recent sources use generic terms. If there is a better term than "northeaster cyclone" I have no objection to using it; I just want a term that readers familiar with the subject area of "extreme weather" will recognize, and for most readers that term is not "Nor'easter". BilledMammal (talk) 14:27, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @BilledMammal: Your only chance is to provide explicit, concrete, overwhelming proof of the claim that “Nor’easter” is not a recognizable term to those familiar with extreme weather—on the contrary that audience is the one that least needs any change to this article’s name—and of the claim that this proposed name is much more commonly used. So far you have failed to provide such proof, not the least because it doesn’t exist.—Jasper Deng (talk) 14:50, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  See Google Trends, which shows the term is barely used outside of Canada and the United States, even in other English-speaking countries. BilledMammal (talk) 15:08, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @BilledMammal: Doesn’t help prove your point; if anything it proves why the page should stay at its current title. Of course this term is used the most in the US and Canada—those countries get the most effects from these storms and thus the ones where people need to know about them the most. That doesn’t make your WP:MADEUP and WP:OR term better; the onus is on the requester to not only show that the current name is not the best one but also to show that the proposed name is better according to Wikipedia policies and guidelines, which you have completely and utterly failed to do.—Jasper Deng (talk) 15:22, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  If you believe a different title will be more appropriate, I have no objections. However, the current title is inappropriate, as it lacks recognizably; we are not required to use the most common name if the most common name has issues, and this name does have issues. BilledMammal (talk) 15:25, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @BilledMammal: Nope—WP:COMMONNAME does in fact require it because you have failed to show that this is not the most recognizable term for these storms, so none of the five criteria that would override COMMONNAME apply. The burden isn’t on me or anyone else here to find a better alternative, which would in any case require a new discussion, so it remains that this one is dead on arrival. To give an analogy, proving I am (say) 9 feet tall doesn’t disprove the claim that I am the tallest person in the world (the tallest was 8 ft. 11 in.). Similarly, showing usage data here for nor’easter alone does nothing to boost another name, nor does it do anything to prove it’s not the most recognizable term. Fallacious reasoning like this (specifically, a non sequitur fallacy) is just a waste of your and the community’s time.—Jasper Deng (talk) 15:40, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  The issue is that someone who is not familiar with the term "Nor'easter" (most of the English-speaking world) won't even recognize these as storms. Also, there is no need to ping me; I have this page on my watchlist. BilledMammal (talk) 15:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

  @BilledMammal: That is totally irrelevant. This isn’t any different from the fact that no one unfamiliar with the term will know what a diffeomorphism is, or that a diffeomorphism is a homeomorphism (just like nor’easters are a special subclass of storms) prior to reading the article. And you’re still dodging the question of why that somehow makes “northeaster cyclone” any better. Your comment also shows a profound lack of understanding of what WP:RECOGNIZABLE means. Also I will continue to ping you as I can’t be sure when you’re checking your watchlist.—Jasper Deng (talk) 15:49, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose per all the reasons cited by others. We should use the common name Nor'easter. Dbroer (talk) 11:57, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - per COMMONNAME. "Northeaster cyclone" is a borderline nonsensical phrase that appears to have been made-up on the spot. – Juliancolton | ^Talk 12:44, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose and strongly suggest a WP:SNOW close. @BilledMammal: Your own opinion of a term is not at all grounds to make up a new term not used anywhere like “northeaster cyclone”, per WP:NOTMADEUP. You have zero chance of getting this to pass for the reasons others have mentioned so I would even suggest you withdraw it directly.—Jasper Deng (talk) 14:42, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose – as the article describes, nor'easter is not used here a generic term, but to specifically refer to a regional storm experienced by those on the U.S. East Coast and Atlantic Canada. Nor'easter reflects the common phrasing/spelling used to describe those storms today. WP:RECOGNIZABILITY does not imply that the what the article title describes is self-evident or self-explanatory – only that familiar readers would recognize it. While Northeaster is sometimes used, Northeaster cyclone is not a construction that is used. —TheAustinMan^{(Talk ⬩ Edits)} 15:05, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose We don't, quite frankly, make shit up just because a term is regional. Your admission that "Nor'easter" is also used in Australia is a rather hilarious own-goal as far as your argument to change the name goes. Trainsandotherthings (talk) 20:18, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose. WP:COMMONNAME applies more than ever here, with the proposed wording having a low double digit Google hits and the flawed argument that "Nor'easter" isn't used outside of North America (with the proposer contradicting themself, even). BilledMammal, please, there's a snowball's chance in hell that this passes, you should withdraw. LilianaUwU ^{(talk / contributions)} 20:47, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose - When I do a Google search for "northeaster cyclone", only 9 total results are yielded, two of which are notification templates regarding this move. In addition, even excluding results from 2000 onwards, a Google Search for "nor'easter" yields 398 results (i.e. approximately 4,422 percent more hits). In addition, as someone interested in weather, I would argue "northeaster cyclone" fails WP:PRECISION because it does not answer this question from a reader with no expertise in the subject area: Where is a "northeaster cyclone" northeastern in reference to? Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]

Additionally, I do not agree with the claim that nor'easter is unrecognizable to most of the world. Even disregarding the United States and Canada, here are three media sources elsewhere in the English-speaking world using nor'easter:

1. Canadian Broadcasting Corportation: "Nor'easters can be slow-moving storms, providing lots of time for significant precipitation"
2. British Broadcasting Corporation: "Dangerous winds and heavy snow expected from US Nor'easter"
3. The New Zealand Herald: "More than 7,000 American flags used in an annual Memorial Day display in Rhode Island were destroyed by rain from last week's nor'easter"
4. The Sydney Morning Herald (from 1911): "Yesterday afternoon a black nor'-easter raged[,] the wind attaining a mean average velocity of [26] miles"

Hurricane Andrew (444) 22:51, 18 August 2023 (UTC)[reply]