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An editor's feedback has prompted me to raise a question. What should constitute the criteria that make a case relevant enough to Obergefell v. Hodges to be included in the section about related cases? Prior to my edit to include Davis v. Ermold et al.only one case was present, Pavan v. Smith. In both cases, Obergefell is apparently strengthened and in both cases Obergefell is explicitly mentioned. Are there other cases as of yet that should be added? Or, is the section itself relevant and needed? Thoughts?SeminarianJohn (talk) 02:52, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
The entire section is certainly unnecessary. However, given the high-profile nature of the subject, if people want the section, then have at it.
Only cases that directly affect the application of Obergefell, or that answer serious legal questions concerning it, should be included. At the time Pavan was decided, there was a serious legal question as to whether Obergefell required same- and different-sex marriages be treated the same. Pavan answered that question. The disputed case answers no such question and fails to change how Obergefell is applied. In fact, the action is merely an inconsequential (for our purposes) denial of writ. At this time, there is simply nothing to see here. That may change. If it does, we’ll see.
As for whether other cases should be added at this time, I doubt it. But what you got? Antinoos69 (talk) 03:10, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Thank you for following up. I am going to address and respond to what you have shared. It is clear we disagree on this particular matter, but at least this way we can have the discussion and see if others weigh in.SeminarianJohn (talk) 03:15, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
SeminarianJohn, I agree that a brief mention of Davis v. Ermold is appropriate. The Alito/Thomas statement on the denial of cert invokes Obergefell directly, and was widely covered in both the general press (New York Times, etc.) as well as the legal trade press (ABA Journal, SCOTUSblog, etc.). The fact that the court denied the petition and the justices' statement has no legal impact does not mean that it is encyclopedically irrelevant. Neutralitytalk 03:22, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Please note that this article is not the place for legal gossip and speculation. Let’s stick to the facts. This is an encyclopedia, not journalism. Antinoos69 (talk) 03:26, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Have no idea what you are talking about. Neutralitytalk 03:27, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Figures. Reread the first sentence. Got it now? Antinoos69 (talk) 03:30, 7 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
I think it is important that if we commit to a discussion with consensus, that we be willing to compromise. Can we think of a way to mention it without making it a major part? Maybe just a sentence?SeminarianJohn (talk) 05:15, 9 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
Equal rights aspect
The majority opinion as stated here is based primarily on the personality rights of the people willing to marry and benefits of their union. It is in a way comparing homosexual and heterosexual unions, asking for the equal treatment of such unions. This is of course a quite "positive" ruling and I understand that supporters like to highlight this.
Another legal argument is that of equal treatment from the viewpoint of the individual participants: If a woman is allowed to marry a male person, then it would constist of unequal legal treatment (prohibited by the 14th amendment) if a man is not entitled to the same right, i.e. to marry the same person (which in this occasion would lead to a homosexual union).
Accordin to the (currently) source 111 https://www.yahoo.com/news/justice-roberts-revives-an-old-argument-that-could-117640176486.html , judge Roberts brought forward that argument in oral hearing but did not support it in the end. But, was that also present in the written arguments?
I also believe a person like Scalia would have had a hard time with his originalist argument, as the authors of the 14th amendment probably even did not think about such result of the 14th amendment: Probably no (homosexual) man would claimed equal rights with brides at that time, and thus, the authors might have insisted on a carveout (to prohibit such results) is they had cared to think about it (which they did not).
So, has this argument played some further role in the ruling (and if not, why), maybe it is not referenced so much as the positive argument sounds more favorable? Meerwind7 (talk) 11:04, 19 October 2020 (UTC)[reply]
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footnote 2 is not correct 74.98.1.85 (talk) 16:59, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
I assume you're talking about Reference 2, which is used to support the statement "Prior to Obergefell, same-sex marriage had already been established by statute, court ruling, or voter initiative in thirty-six states, the District of Columbia, and Guam." If so, which part of that do you deem to be not rue? -- Nat Gertler (talk) 22:47, 1 September 2023 (UTC)[reply]
