Colonel William A. Phillips

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In the article's introduction, it states the following:

In total, ἐκκλησία appears in the New Testament text 114 times, although not every instance is a technical reference to the church. As such it is used for local communities as well as in a universal sense to mean all believers. "Christianity", on the other hand, was first by the Church Father Saint Ignatius of Antioch (c. 35–108/140 AD).

The last sentence's wording is unclear to me, particularly "Christianity, on the other hand, was first by the Church Father..." What was it the first of, the first time the terminology appeared? Given the context, I can assume that is what was meant, but don't want to make a false assumption. -proxxz ^talk 06:00, 5 February 2021 (UTC)[reply]

‎User:‎Veverve, I am going to ask you, from a procedural standpoint, to revert your undiscussed page move and the redirects that have accompanied it, such as this one. The term "Christian Church" means different things to different denominations. The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, might see themselves as being synonymous with the term Christian Church while the Church of England might see itself as being part of a wider Christian Church. This article exists to explain those nuances, rather than focus them to one branch of Christianity. I am pinging User:Doug Weller, User:Ltwin, User:Indyguy, and User:Tahc as they regularly help mantain Wikipedia's important articles relating to Christianity. If you still feel differently, you can start a formal page move request and the issue can be addressed that way. Thanks for your understanding. With regards, Anupam^Talk 17:57, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: This page starts by describing its subject as "a Protestant ecclesiological term referring to the church invisible comprising all Christians, used since the Protestant Reformation in the 16th century." It precises that the concept is "in contrast to the one true church applied to a specific concrete Christian institution, a majority Christian ecclesiological position maintained by the Catholic Church, the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Oriental Orthodox churches, Assyrian Church of the East and the Ancient Church of the East." It is therefore an article only used to describe a Protestant concept (which from what I understand is the foundation for the branch theory). If the article is explains that The Catholic Church and the Eastern Orthodox Church, for example, might see themselves as being synonymous with the term Christian Church while the Church of England might see itself as being part of a wider Christian Church, the definitions from other churches are only used as anecdotes, to provide a contrast, to help understand the concept. It is not an article which concerns the whole Christendom and their understanding of what is the Christian Church or a Christian Church; it is an article about a term used by some Protestants to describe the whole Christendom as a whole Church which would englobe all Protestant denominations, Catholics, Old Catholics, Eastern Orthodox, etc.

I believe my page move, while bold, is perfectly justified and, dare I say, necessary due to the way the term "Christian Church" was used as a hyperlink which I described earlier. Veverve (talk) 18:38, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

PS: It seems that already in 2019, @PPEMES: had pointed this problem of people thinking this page was about Christianity in general, and not an article about a specific and precise Protestant concept. Veverve (talk) 19:21, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The addition of the word "Protestant" to the lede of this article to redefine the scope of this article was made only over a year ago. That, as well as your page move, should be formally discussed since it is controversial. I, for one, feel that this article's scope encompasses all of Christianity, not just Protestant ecclesiology. I will wait and see what others have to say. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 19:26, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: I found in versions from before the one you gave: "generally used by Protestants" in 2017, and a version using a Methodist website as a source. Moreover, even if the word "Protestant" is removed, the concept is still the same. And the idea that the Church is bigger than a visible, hierarchic church, or that the Church of Christ is an entity which incarnates iself in muliple churches with different dogmas and hierarchies, is indeed a Protestant concept (nothwistanding the exceptions of the baptism of unconscious desire and the subsistit in of the Catholic Church). Therefore, it is normal to state clearly that this concept is Protestant. Veverve (talk) 19:51, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

In any case, it seems it has been years since this page has been about the general concept of what a Church is in Christianity. I find this situation normal, since there is already Church (congregation), Church (building), and Christian denomination to talk about those general concepts. Veverve (talk) 19:57, 22 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Another example of the urgency of the problem of this article's former name: "Christian Church" was defined at Local church (disambiguation), before I changed it, as "both a Christian association of people and a place of worship". Nothing to do with the concept of "the church invisible comprising all Christians". Veverve (talk) 15:29, 23 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The purpose of this article should be to describe what the term "Christian Church" means to various Christian traditions, including Catholicism, Protestantism and Orthodoxy. Moving this article was a WP:BOLD move given that it is controversial and completely changes the scope of the article. Unfortunately, we haven't heard back from others yet but I will try seeking the opinion of User:Doug Weller, an administrator, again. Thank you for your patience. With regards, Anupam^Talk 01:29, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: the way I see it, the scope of this article has been defined for at least the past five years - I have not made research into older archives -, and the title was therefore misleading. I changed the misleading title to match the scope of the article. Veverve (talk) 12:40, 24 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Elizium23:, @Omnipaedista:, @Marcocapelle: sorry to bother you, but we are having troubles finding a third party's opinion. Could you provide some feedack on the subject? Veverve (talk) 11:37, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• It would probably be alright to have an article from a Protestant point of view, but it would/should have far less content than this article. Apart from the lede, the scope of the article is much broader than Protestantism. Marcocapelle (talk) 14:09, 25 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks for your comment User:Marcocapelle. I agree that this article's scope is much larger than just Protestantism and should encompass all of Christianity. As I mentioned above, the lede was only altered relatively recently to redefine the scope of the article. With regard to an article that talks about this concept from a Protestant view, there is already the article about the Invisible Church. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 02:16, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: I told you previously that the scope of the article has been changed at least 5 years ago. I have now done my research.

It seems the current wording of the first paragraph of the summary is due to a change made back in 2012.

In 2013 the summary said "The term Christian Church when used as a proper noun usually refers to the whole Christian religious tradition throughout history." The 2013 wording is very close to the concept the first paragraph is currently (2021) about; it was a Protestant concept already 9 years ago.

Said 2013 wording remained the same in until 2015. Then, in 2015, someone added that it was a Protestant point of view while not changing the first sentence.

Said first sentence remained the same until 2016 when it was changed by merging it with the second sentence to "The Christian Church is a term generally used by Protestants to refer to the whole group of people belonging to the Christian religious tradition throughout history."

The phrase "generally used by Protestants" was then removed in 2017. Then it was added back along with "and some others" a few months later. Then, a few month later, "Christian religious tradition" was replaced with "Christianity" (to which "Christian religious tradition" was already hyperlinked for years), "ecclesiastical" was added, and "and some others" was removed.

Anupam, you made numerous edits in 2018, and apparently the phrase which caused much problems was not a problem to you. Still in 2018, the wording was slightly changed.

2019: "ecclesiological" is removed, then put back. Still in 2019, the sentence is radically changed to "c"Christian Church" is an ecclesiological term generally used by Protestants to refer to the Church invisible, and/or whole group of people belonging to Christianity throughout the history of Christianity." (the typo mistakes was corrected in the following edits). 2019 again, a short description is added, reading: "Term used to refer to the whole worldwide group of people belonging to the Christian religious tradition"; "worldwide" was then removed. Minor change to the first sentence of the summary. Once more 2019, the wording is changed to "Christian Church is a Protestant ecclesiological term referring to the church invisible and/or all Christians throughout the history of Christianity, used since the Protestant reformation in the 16th century." It is then changed to "The Christian Church, also called the holy catholic church, is a Protestant ecclesiological concept of a church invisible comprising all Christians." The phrase was thereafter changed again to say it is not a "Protestant", but a "Christian" concept. One month later, the sentence is changed to "Christian Church is a Protestant ecclesiological term referring to the church invisible comprising all Christians, used since the Protestant reformation in the 16th century."

So, in short, this page has been about a Protestant concept for at least 9 years - and I did not bother going before 2012 -, and the adjective "Protestant" to this concept was not added two, but six years ago. Moreover, it seems the subject of this article as presented in its first sentence has been slowly changing over the years. Veverve (talk) 04:27, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

While doing my research, I noticed @Editor2020: had edited the page. Maybe he/she can provide some feedback on our current debate. Veverve (talk) 04:36, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• The history of the page is interesting but it is not going to provide a solution to the problem. The problem is that the current title and the current lede are not in line with the scope of the current entire article.

Step 1 should be to split the article (at least in our imagination) between a cross-denominational article and a Protestant article.

Step 2a should be to discuss if the cross-denominational article should stay, dependent on whether other than Protestant denominations actively use the term.

Step 2b should be to discuss if the Protestant article should stay, or whether it should be merged into Invisible Church. Marcocapelle (talk) 07:22, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Marcocapelle: While I agree with you, I think in this plan step 0 would be to look for sources. Is there sources stating that "Christian Church" is the name of the Protestant concept we are talking about? And is there sources to make an article about how some denomination call themselved "the Christian Church" or "a Christian Church"? Veverve (talk) 11:24, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Marcocapelle, one thing that should be acknowledged, in my view, is that this page move was made boldly without a discussion and should be reverted since there is no consensus for the present title. Either User:Veverve can do that or I can request it at WP:RM/TR. I don't believe an article split is actually necessary since this article neatly covers all of Christianity and for those who want to learn more about the specific Protestant doctrinal position, Invisible Church already exists to delineate it. I hope this helps. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 14:32, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

We still have no source for any use of the expression "Christian Church", be it the Protestant invisible Church one or the cross-denominational one. In 2012, before the change, sources were this and this; however, those definitions seem to fit the Christian denomination article more. In 2010, it was McKim, Donald K. Westminster Dictionary of Theological Terms. Westminster: John Knox Press, 1996; however, despite using the expression "Christian church" multiple times, the book does not have any entry on the expression "Christian Church" where it should, on p. 47. So, those past references do not help. I feel we should just WP:TNT the article and start anew, with sources clearly defining the scope of the article. Veverve (talk) 15:21, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: I'd strongly suggest WP:RM#CM as the best way to go. Doug Weller talk 18:35, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

‎User:‎Veverve, sorry but I don't know enough about the term to be of any help. Editor2020 (talk) 22:01, 26 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Doug Weller, thank you for the advice. I will go ahead and request that this article be moved back to its original title at WP:RM#CM. It seems that User:Marcocapelle agrees with me on this point too. I'd like to note that there are other sources that talk about the term "Christian Church" outside a Protestant context, including the website of the Orthodox Church of America. After the article is moved back, I plan to propose a rewrite of the lede. If User:Veverve disagrees with my revision, I will start an RfC to gain community input. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:29, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Marcocapelle, please have a look at this revision of the lede and let me know your thoughts. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 04:12, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• It surely resolves the inconsistency between lede and article that I noted earlier. Marcocapelle (talk) 06:05, 27 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: I think it is not too soon for a discussion to take place concerning the subject of this page. The way I see it, this page should either be deleted, or turned into a disambiguation page. I think so, because the subject of this page is too imprecise, and that all subjects are covered.

1. If the article is about the Protestant concept that the Church is bigger than a visible, hierarchical church, or that the Church of Christ is an entity which incarnates iself in muliple churches with different dogmas and hierarchies, and that therefore there is numerous divided legitimate continuations of the Church(es) that Jesus Christ would have founded, we already have Invisible church, One true church, and Branch theory
2. If it is a designation of Christianity, we already have Christianity.
3. If it is about a group of people meeting for religious purpose, we already have Church (congregation).
4. If it is about the building, we already have Church (building).
5. If it is about the groups of people identifying themselves as part of one doctrine, current, or hierarchy, or the three of those, we aleady have Christian denomination.
6. If it is about denominations or hierarchical structures claiming to be the only legitimate continuation of the Church that Jesus Christ would have founded, we already have One true church.

@Elizium23: could you give some feedback on my proposition? Veverve (talk) 23:39, 28 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

User:Veverve, I do not feel that this article is imprecise at all; it explains how different denominations understand the "Christian Church", a term which is also used by academics, especially in reference to early Christianity. The Eastern Orthodox Church understands the Christian Church to be itself while many Protestant Churches, such as the Reformed Church, might see the Christian Church as consisting of those truly saved, for example. Given the fact that the above move discussion sees no issues with the article as it was under its previous title (it appears that it will soon be moved back there as well as your vote was the only one opposed to it), the article as it stood was fine. Besides, this article has the status of being a vital article so turning this into a dab page or deleting it are not options at all. User:Ltwin seemed to echo similar sentiments above. I hope this helps. With regards, Anupam^Talk 03:22, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@Anupam: For now, you have not provided a source stating clearly that "Christian church" is "what different Christian denominations conceive of as being the body of true Christians". There is dozens of pan-denominational theological dictionaries, so if this definition could be found, I think it would be easy to find.

Moreover, I think that all visions of what Christianity is, is already covered in the 6 points I enumerated. Veverve (talk) 10:50, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

The lede of an article actually doesn't need a source per WP:LEDE, but summarizes the points of an article. The first sentence reflects a reality that represents the different views on what the Christian Church is. As mentioned before, the Orthodox Church sees itself as the true visible Christian Church while the Reformed Churches would hold that the Christian Church has both a visible and invisible nature. Kind regards, Anupam^Talk 17:06, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Are you really asking me to have a look a each source to check if "Christian Church" is effectively used this way? And even if it does, then as I said we already have One true church and Invisible church. As for the Reformed tradition, we already have Protestant ecclesiology#Visible and invisible church (which is currently totally unsourced). As for now, until a third party cares enough to intervene in this discussion, I will stop participating in this discussion which is only stagnating. Veverve (talk) 20:34, 29 June 2021 (UTC)[reply]

• I know very little about this topic area, and am not entirely sure the intended scope of the article. I believe it refers to "a philosophical construct of all Christian believers", and not "specific organizations claiming apostolic succession", but am not even sure of that. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 23:40, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

@力: The subject of the article is both, because it encompasses numerous meanings of the expression "Christian Church"; i.e. the subject is any group or institution being considered as legitimate Christians by any group or institution including themselves. The fact the title of the article is so vague - and is also, as I claim, unjustified - does not help understand the topic. Veverve (talk) 23:52, 3 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]

I've asked for help at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Christianity/Noticeboard as I am unable to even propose an alternative title. User:力 (power~enwiki, π, ν) 00:00, 4 July 2021 (UTC)[reply]