Colonel William A. Phillips

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Most of the information on here doesn't have proper citations! I don't believe half of it-about Kerry. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.82.39.146 (talk • contribs) 00:42, 20 March 2007

As noted above their are few citations, also the article just jumps in a talks about a "Kerry" with no link or anything else. I assume it's refering to Sen. John Kerry (D), but this article needs major work. LCpl 01:08, 10 April 2007 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, appartently it is ... I followed the sloppy external link, read the article, and created a {{cite news}} to replace it and use for the redlinked attempts at a reference in that section:

• Sydney Schanberg (April 4, 2004). "Missing". The San Diego Union-Tribune. {{cite news}}: Check date values in: |date= (help); Unknown parameter |accesdate= ignored (|access-date= suggested) (help)

Since the author was a Pulitzer Prize winner, it should have been a no-branier that they have a wiki-link to put in the |author= field.

Some Other Editor can figure out "how the magicks work" and apply it to any of the other {{cn}} tags, if they can figure out which of the "External links" should be referenced. :-)

Happy Editing! —68.239.79.82 18:18, 14 May 2007 (UTC)[reply]

hier a link from germany about Lieutenant Shannon Estill , us air force, 428. Fighter Squadron.

• Joint POW/MIA Account Command - Sucheinheit nach ehemaligen Vermissten und Kriegsgefangenen

found nearby Elsnig, near Torgau in northwestern Saxony.

Titel: Die Heimkehr des Leutnants Estill. In german newspaper Der Spiegel online, May 26th 2007 (www.spiegel.de/panorama/zeitgeschichte/0,1518,druck-485069,00.html)

if there is anybody, who want to have some more details about the documant.film,

the notice is part of wp: de - US Army. So long. --Asdfj 11:51, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Found this on the Village Voice, Schanberg lists a bunch of articles, but only the title and date. These will need to be searched for in google news archive or LexisNexis.

• Schanberg, Sydney H. (2004-03-02). "Follow the Microfiche". Village Voice. Retrieved 2007-06-01.

-Crockspot 05:31, 1 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

The vandalism to Wikipedia Missing in Action that occurred last year has happened again, but this time with a new twist. Last year someone, without leaving any explanation, on numerous occasions deleted large portions of the work that had been done on Wikipedia Missing in Action. Recently the same thing was done, with virtually the entire MIA text for the 1990s deleted. However, I have noticed that in place of the deletions is a link to a new Wikipedia entry for what was previously the subtopic of the Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. I followed the link. This new linked entry contains all kinds of editorial comments, political spin, subjects beyond the subject of a committee, and has some of the most basic facts about the committee wrong. To put it simply, one individual has taken upon himself or herself to delete a large portion of the work done over time on Wikipedia MIA, and in effect replaced with incorrect information and heavy editorial comment. Adding a large body of information, a good deal of which is false or misleading, was done, avoiding all objections by those who were unaware of this new location. In summary, this was a veiled plan by one individual to rewrite the work of many that had been done over time. I believe this was done in an unethical manner, and that this kind of behavior is not in keeping with the good intentions of Wikipedia. I will find what backup information I can to try and restore the information that was erased, and do the same if the vandal attacks again. ToTheCircus (talk) 05:11, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You are confusing vandalism with maintaining a neutral point of view. The old account at this article presented only one point of view, that of those POW/MIA activists who believe in live prisoners and a 30-year government conspiracy to abandon them. There are several other points of view, such as the U.S. Government, websites such as miafacts.org, the Kerry committee report, books such as those by Susan Katz Keating and Bruce Franklin, and so forth, that have to be represented as well. Indeed, since these viewpoints collectively represent the mainstream of thought on this matter and yours and those of the 30-year-conspiracy activists do not, by weight most of the content in these articles must represent the mainstream views; see WP:Undue weight. That's what I'm working towards. The activist/Schanberg viewpoint will get its day, but it won't be the only one or the most frequent one. If you don't like Wikipedia's rules, and don't like this weighting that must take place, I can understand that; people have very deeply felt, passionate beliefs on this issue. In that case there are many sites on the web that support your viewpoint, and I would suggest you go there. But if you want to edit here, you'll have to follow the Wikipedia guidelines for NPOV, undue weighting, and verification and citing. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:39, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To address your other point, yes I changed the structure of these articles. The material that used to be here was heavily focussed on the Kerry committee, which is better dealt with in its own article (other famous Senate special committees have their own articles too, such as those for Watergate and Whitewater). What is really needed is an overall article on the Vietnam POW/MIA issue, from the time of the war through the present. It's a big topic and shouldn't dominate this article, which ideally should be about missing in action throughout history and not skewed towards Vietnam. But that doesn't exist yet, although I did create Category:Vietnam War POW/MIA issues to at least group together all the existing articles that touch on the subject. Wasted Time R (talk) 05:47, 31 January 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To ALL: The recovery of the deleted information is going slowly and not going to be perfect. Unfortunately, some of your refinements and additions may been destroyed forever. Please help restore the site if you can. I am restoring at least some of what was deleted, and we can work together from there. As to the comments from Wasted R Time, my objection was about deleting large amounts of information that had been put out there over time and replacing it with your own information (much of which is inaccurate) without comment. I clearly remember there were a number of positive comments from different people to the effect that Wikipedia MIA was a good start. We all should respect those comments, even if they differ from our own. Those discussion comments have also disappeared. If you thought a specific point was inaccurately represented you could have voiced an opinion and we all could have checked the facts and deleted it if it was wrong. If you thought different areas needed expanding in order to have balance, you could have added information rather than have deleted accurate information. You summed up your comments about proper weighting by saying "That's what I'm working towards." I think that WE, that is, EVERYONE willing to contribute, should be working toward a properly weighted factual MIA Wikipedia through careful examination of the facts. This means not going out and just erasing data you want suppressed and replacing it with your own information. Comments like your statement "In that case there are many sites on the web that support your viewpoint, and I would suggest you go there" do not, in my opinion, encourage an atmosphere of community and working together. Please introduce any of your proposed deletions and alterations one or two at a time, state clearly what you think might not be factual, and allow for sufficient time for research and discussion. I believe we in the Wikipedia community would have caught a lot of the errors of fact that you have introduced at your new location had you done so. Additionally, a good debate over what belongs and what does not can occur without characterizing others. For example, do your comments regarding the fictional movie "Rambo" and writings about events that took place many years after the committee belong under the topic of the Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs? Rather than pronounce what will or will not be the most "frequent" position, carefully consider information for ACCURACY and BASIS of fact. Let's all work TOGETHER constructively and come up with a good truthful end product. We then can break up the material and work out what links (create links (maybe more, less, or the same of what you think there should be) we agree should be made. ToTheCircus (talk) 05:19, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Your knowledge of Wikipedia is very poor. Nothing ever disappears, unless an article is outright deleted, which I do not believe has happened here. Everything is in the histories of back versions, including Talk discussions. You do not know how to write a proper citation; no Wikipedia article text contains things like "END VILLAGE VOICE QUOTATION". I'd advise you to study other articles and see how things are done here. This is not your average discussion board where everybody posts information they find useful and it is all shared. You should begin your study of Wikipedia with WP:V, WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:CITE. You also do not know how to associate material with articles; detailed criticisms of the Kerry committee obviously belong in the United States Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs article, not here. Regarding your criticism of the background and legacy material in that article, I understand your point, and some of it may be moved out once an overall article on the Vietnam POW/MIA issue is created, but as for now, that's the best place for it.

But to cut to the quick, the Schanberg view of the POW/MIA question cannot dominate our treatment of it. Per WP:Undue weight, it is a "small minority" viewpoint among reliable sources and must be treated as such. If you cannot accept this, you are bound to be unhappy here; it is only in that context that I suggested you stick to web sites that do not question that view. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:03, 17 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The restored information that I put out has once again been deleted. The last restored information was taken from material on an archival webcrawler, and I was unaware that the history section contained backups. It appears that I went to a lot of extra work due to the original removal of the information without discussion. I will restore information I can find on more up-to-date histories. Not only has accurate information been suppressed, but a good deal of inaccurate information and extreme spin have been added to a new linked site about the 1991-1992 POW/MIA Committee. Much of it is outside of the topic of the committee, and those topics should be addressed at Wikipedia MIA. The personal characterizations do not help make a better Wikipedia. ToTheCircus (talk) 13:23, 28 February 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Any chance we could get a more, non-american, worldwide view? I'm sure other countries have their MIA soldiers... or could the MIA from Iraq go into its own section? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 206.116.29.56 (talk) 18:18, 17 August 2008 (UTC)[reply]

I'm afraid I have to agree. This article consists of one paragraph about MIA and then a huge section about US war heroes. This is a long way from the neutral POV that Wikipedia is meant to present. Either the US entry should be moved to an article of its own, or else a lot of other international examples must be added. As it stands this article looks very biased! 84.144.92.28 (talk) 11:27, 5 September 2008 (UTC)[reply]

A new article exists, Vietnam War POW/MIA issue, which contains a fuller and fairer treatment of the American MIA issues related to the Vietnam War and Southeast Asia. Accordingly, the material here on this subject has been boiled down to a summary, with a "main" link to the new article. This should address at least some of the "worldwide view" criticism above. Wasted Time R (talk) 00:42, 23 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Nice work - that change is long overdue. Thanks for being bold and doing this. Nick-D (talk) 07:23, 24 November 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Unfortunately, there has been another attack on Wikipedia missing in action.To review (and please review the talk comments of early 2008 at ), the last we had seen of Wasted Time R at Wikipedia missing in action was in February of 2008. He had deleted specific facts without providing specific justification for the deletions, even after being asked. After wiping out factual information at Wikipedia missing in action (which included much information on the Kerry Senate Select POW/MIA Committee) he left a link to a location that he created about that committee, where he created his own version of events. A large amount of the good work that had been done by the Wikipedia community was thus wiped out by this one individual. I restored the Senate Select POW/MIA Committee information and the rest of the information to Wikipedia missing in action, informing people of the vandalism in the talk section of Wikipedia missing in action. To make a long story short, Wasted Time R did not heed requests to specifically justify what he deleted, nor did he comply with requests to submit new sections at a time so that the numerous errors could be weeded out of the large amount of information he was introducing. I restored vandalized information on multiple occasions, keeping information on the select POW/MIA committee there, and after one of the restores of the improperly deleted information at Wikipedia missing in action Wasted Time R apparently left Wikipedia missing in action.

Then, on November 23, 2008, Wasted Time R returned to Wikipedia missing in action, this time stating that the topic had been moved to another location (which he created). As was the case before, a new Wikipedia entry was created by this individual, information was deleted, and many untrue and biased statements were introduced. The tactics were the same. It is obvious to me that some of the facts which he has deleted in the past would, if people were allowed to see them, cause claims of his to be questioned. On November 23, 2008 he left a comment in the talk area of Wikipedia missing in action to the effect that his creation is “fairer.” In reality the material he has put out there is chock full of misrepresentations, bias, and negative stereotyping. As I said in my talk comments of February 17, 2008 at Wikipedia missing in action : “Please introduce any of your proposed deletions and alterations one or two at a time, state clearly what you think might not be factual, and allow for sufficient time for research and discussion.”

Unfortunately, there is a lot of misleading and down right false information on the Internet, and it is easy for people to be misled or caught up in a plausible sounding story and spread that story around. Taking care to get the basic data straight is particularly essential for this topic. This is not a race to delete what has been established over time and dump out as much data (true or not) as possible. And statements should be avoided that statements that belittle or demean positions that a person may not embrace.

This being the situation, I will again restore and continue to restore data that has been deleted without proper cause, and we will maintain all information directly related to this topic of those unaccounted for only at Wikipedia MIA for now. I believe people have a right to see factual information. I will leave a link back to Wikipedia missing in action at other related locations for the time being , and no text should be created at those locations (I will remove such text now and in the future when information is unjustly deleted).

Once differences are worked out and we get all of the errors cleaned up to the best of our ability, we then can decide on any new locations for subtopics, etc. and then actually MOVE the exact information in entirety (not using a “move” as a vehicle to delete facts that one person thinks should be suppressed or to rewrite established information). We can hash out any differences of fact in the talk section of Wikipedia missing in action Thank you. ToTheCircus (talk) 05:31, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are two separate, independent issues here. One, in what article should the long, complicated, controversial Vietnam POW/MIA material be included in detail. Two, what the actual content should be of that material.

Regarding the first issue, there have been a number of comments/complaints in this article's edit summaries, tags applied, and talk page (see the two sections right above this one) that agree that this article, Missing in action, should be about the subject of "missing in action" in general, as a phenonemon of wars that exists across different countries, different conflicts, and different time periods. It should only contain a summary of the Vietnam MIA issue, as well as summaries of other MIA issues or episodes throughout history. Thus, creation of a separate Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article has been long overdue. This is the standard way that Wikipedia topics are organized; read WP:Summary style if you don't believe me. Similarly, United States Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs is a lower-level article that is examines in further detail one important aspect of Vietnam War POW/MIA issue.

Regarding the second issue, I don't expect you to agree on the content. Bring your concerns to Talk:Vietnam War POW/MIA issue or make additions to Vietnam War POW/MIA issue directly. Note that I left one whole section there, "Evidence for and against 'live prisoners'", open in the article for additions by both points of view on the details of the issue. Wasted Time R (talk) 21:10, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regarding your desire to have an accounting of the changes that I made, this is your last version of the "Missing in action" article. The paragraph points in it are as follows, along with my annotation of whether they were included in the new Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article:

• "During the late 1970s and 1980s the friends and relatives of unaccounted for American GIs became politically active ..." - Yes, included in the "Origins" section
• The Defense Department, headed by then Secretary of Defense Dick Cheney, had been accused of covering up information ..." - Yes, in "The 'live prisoners' debate" section. But not the "Six live sighting investigators" part, which needs further explication (Smith/Hendon's investigators?).
• "Controversy erupted when Kerry ordered the report of the live sighting investigators to be shredded ..." - Summarized, in last paragraph of "Kerry committee" section. Kerry has denied the details of this 'shredding' episode, saying they were just copies of those documents.
• "The 2004 documentary Missing, Presumed Dead: The Search for America's POWs, narrated by Ed Asner, ..." - "Where are all the Senators" not in the new article, but yes in United States Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs. Sec Def statements - Yes, in the new article in the "Kerry committee" section. Minority dissensions by Smith and Grassley - Yes, in "Kerry committee".
• "The Vietnam trade embargo was lifted ..." - Yes, in "Normalization with Vietnam" section.
• Dan Rather quote - Yes, in "Normalization with Vietnam" section.
• "In 2006, the National Alliance of Families found 1992 documents ..." - Yes, in "In the 2000s" section.

So as you can see, the large majority of the Vietnam content in your Missing in action article has been incorporated into the new Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article. Of course, I've added a lot of other material to that article, since your presentation here was entirely one-sided. You will have to live with the fact that Wikipedia will describe both sides of this issue, not just yours. Wasted Time R (talk) 22:14, 7 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

There are indeed two issues—I explained this back in the Wikipedia MIA talk section

on February 17, 2008. The major issue is the content, and the minor issue is redefining titles, etc. The way not to blur those two issues is to proceed as I stated there—introduce new information a section at a time, justify deletions, work together, etc. and then once the facts are established MOVE IN ENTIRETY the information to appropriate new subject titles. The new titles could be discussed in the talk section. It was clear to me that in early 2008 you were using a supposed “move” to a new location for the Senate Select POW/MIA Committee as an opportunity to wipe out accurate information without offering specific justification, replacing it with your own opinions and numerous inaccuracies. I remember I began reading your new committee write-up and right there to begin with you even had the names of the twelve senators on the committee wrong!

The major complaint, though, was that you deleted accurate information without

justification-and it appeared to me that facts you deleted were getting in the way of some of the arguments you were trying to put forth.

Rather than participate in the discussion in Wikipedia MIA, between February 17 and

November 23 of 2008 you made no appearance at all in Wikipedia MIA, and now return by “moving” the topic to your own new location. You left more information in for appearance sake than you did with your previous “move, but you deleted crucial facts, and introduced much inaccurate and biased information, once again avoiding specific justifications in the talk section of Wikipedia MIA. Now that you have created your own personal version of events, you want everyone to start from there rather than from what had been previously established. A proposal to move information in entirety, without change, to another reasonably named location would likely not have received any objection at all. The objection has been in your tactics used to avoid discussion and justification, and not about suggestions for a worldwide view (a good idea). By the way, a worldwide view will come about when there are contributions about the missing in other parts of the world.

Using your tactics, anyone who wants to introduce their own

material in mass and suppress important information that has been previously established by the community simply needs to come up with a new name or new names for a topic and unilaterally rewrite information (your rewrite is full of inaccuracies and unfair characterizations) under the auspices of a move. Your latest move is veiled better than before by including more of the old material—but that does not mean there isn’t vandalism taking place. You repeatedly declined to accept invitations you were given to specifically justify deletions or additions in the talk section of Wikipedia MIA. Once you created your own personal version to your liking, you then graciously told me to bring my concerns to the talk section of the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue. Is it a coincidence that you who wouldn’t previously discuss specific changed suddenly decided to welcome discussion right after you finished your rewrite and had everything just the way you decided it should be? That should make it clear to everyone as to what’s really going on. What would you think if someone used similar tactics to delete and competely rewrite a subject you had made significant contributions to?

I’ll restore the information here at Wikipedia MIA—please, I must consider future

deletions without specific justification by anyone as vandalism. Also, it’s best if you refrain from assumptions of what I will like or not like, as well as characterizations in the text you’ve created. Accurate and balanced is what I am about, no matter what you might assume. Be aware that it’s easy to pick up on bad data that too often can be found on the Internet. Let’s all work together in a respectful and methodical manner--first getting the facts established and agreed upon. After I restore the information, let’s first go over what you want deleted. Do you think it’s dead wrong, or stated incorrectly-what’s the objection? How about some of the wording showing two sides of a topic? Some of the wording was worked out over a long period of time by different people. Do you think one side is given too much emphasis? Voice your objection in the talk section of Wikipedia MIA. In summary, this is where the subject has been established, we will work out differences here to the best of our abilities (please everyone try to make an effort), and THEN legitimate and actual moves of information can be made.

P.S. There was some information on remains that I moved from the top section down

to the bottom and retitled during the previous restore-I forgot to mention that on the previous restore-sorry all. ToTheCircus (talk) 09:30, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

The fact that I was away for most of the year on this article is irrelevant. As it happens, I was heavily involved in editing articles about 2008 presidential election figures, including Hillary Clinton, John McCain, Joe Biden, and others. After the election was over, I started coming back to some previous areas I had worked on.

The moving of most of the Vietnam MIA material to a separate article is not just based on my opinion of where it should be, but that of others also. The excessive focus on the American POW issue here was a complaint of editors such as User:Nabokov, User:Sean7phil, User:206.116.29.56, User:84.144.92.28, and User:Neddyseagoon. The Wikipedia:Summary style guideline says that "Creation of the new article should be agreed to by consensus of editors." I believe such a consensus is established; you are the only editor who appears to object to the move. Your previous attempts to undo this arrangement were reverted by User:Eeekster, User:Jeff G., and by a bot, and you received several warnings on your talk page. So there is no other support I can see for your insistence that all the detail of the Vietnam MIA issue be included here in Missing in action. If you want, we can set up a WP:Requests for comment to get outside opinion on whether the Vietnam MIA material deserves its own article or not. But I can tell you, you'll almost certainly lose that RfC. Military articles are heavily organized around the summary style scheme, and indeed the organization of World War II is the canonical example of this. Since a number of entire books have been dedicated to the Vietnam MIA topic, it's pretty clear it deserves its own article, and shouldn't just be part of the generic missing in action topic.

And no, it doesn't matter how long the subject has been located in this article; Wikipedia doesn't give much weight to stare decisis. If something is wrong, it gets fixed no matter how long it has been wrong, and if something is in the wrong place, it gets moved no matter how long it has been in the wrong place. And yes, this sort of thing has happened to my work here too; for example, my whole view about what the John McCain articles should look like got overturned by consensus of others. That's how it works here!

As for your content objection to United States Senate Select Committee on POW/MIA Affairs, you are correct, at one point the list of 12 senators had a couple of mistakes in it. I've since changed it, to be Kerry, Smith, McCain, Kerrey, Robb, Brown, Grassley, Kassebaum, Kohl, Daschle, Reid, and Helms. Do you still believe this to be incorrect? Do you have a definite source that gives the membership list? For some reason, the official senate committee report never lists its members anywhere in it, at least not that I could see.

Regarding your most recent edits here, I notice you have added two new paragraphs, "Some argue that it is likely that prisoners taken by Vietnam ..." and "Others emphasize that ..." I have incorporated this material nearly verbatim near the end of the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article, qualifying it to say that both views are predicated upon the idea that Vietnam held some prisoners back at the end of the war (which of course many people don't believe).

As for my objection to your preferred content, what I didn't like that was in your material is described above in my previous set of comments. For what I found lacking in your content, one aspect is exactly what you surmise: "one side is given too much emphasis". You focus almost solely on the "live prisoners" aspect and not the remains recovery aspect. You don't give an adequate history of the issue, starting with Operation Homecoming, describing the number of POWs and MIAs involved, and describing the U.S. efforts to recover remains, including the Defense Prisoner of War/Missing Personnel Office and the Joint POW/MIA Accounting Command. You don't discuss several famous aspects to the issue, such as the Bobby Garwood question or the Bo Gritz missions or the "three amigos" Newsweek cover. You don't discuss the family organizations and the split between the League and the Alliance. You don't discuss several famous investigators or political figures, such as Hendon or LeBoutillier or Perot. Your account is overly reliant upon one source, Sydney Schanberg, and is overly concerned with one period of the issue, the Kerry hearings and normalization with Vietnam. I have tried to address all these shortcomings in the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article. In doing so, the vast majority of the sources I have cited are books and mainstream newspaper and magazine articles – see Vietnam War POW/MIA issue#References – not "bad data that too often can be found on the Internet" as you claim. Which of the sources in that References section do you object to? I'm not saying that the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article is complete: it's not by a long shot, and as I said and as I'm sure you know, whole books have been written about this subject. But it's a far more comprehensive and much fairer treatment of the issue than what you want here in this article. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:44, 13 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

You seem to be missing the point. At the beginning of the year, I indicated in the Wikipedia MIA talk section that we proceed a section of a time, working together, so that we in the Wikipedia community could establish a good solid FACTUAL structure. That means justifying deletions; adding material a section at a time so it could be reviewed for discussion, etc. If you check back at my comments at the beginning of the year, I think this was very clear. Yet I didn’t see any discussion in the Wikipedia MIA talk section of doing a specific move or justifying deletes, or moving material in the talk section until you actually deleted the information and created POW/MIA issues. To be clear, no editors discussed a “move” in the talk section, and it really wasn’t a move, it was a rewrite. I have previously stated I thought suggestions for a world wide view were a good idea. This cannot come about until someone ADDS information about other countries. To cure the sole focus on the U.S. MIA issue, you could have simply introduced material about other countries. It’s the same for the MIA issue, you are correct when you say additions are needed. You could have discussed what problems you had in the talk section, and then ADDED information. There was what looked like a real good start to the topic of remains included in my restores. All I did was move the material someone else wrote to the bottom and gave it a “remains” title. You say “don't give an adequate history of the issue” and “You don't discuss several famous aspects to the issue” and “You don't discuss several famous investigators or political figures” and “Your account is overly reliant upon one source” and “You don't discuss the family organizations and the split between the League and the Alliance.” You make it sound like I am solely responsible for everything that was not there, and you make it sound like I’m the guy who did the rewrite! In fact, I have been a contributor—I was not the one who did the rewrite. A contributor should not be blamed for what is not there. There are two problems – the manner in which it was done--your unjustified deletions and declining to put up information for scrutiny a section at a time, and the content. I just mentioned the twelve senators because it was the first of many incorrect statements you had put out there, combined with negative, unsupported, or simply bad characterizations. I mean, I could read through once and find a number of absolutely incorrect statements, and many unfair characterizations. There was just too much bad information—an entire rewrite of your information would have to be done, so it was best to revert back. In examining the material it appeared as if much of what you were introducing was along the lines of the rendition from one guy’s website you gave as a source, and much other from biographies or stories about John McCain-undue weight. Remember, McCain was neither chairman nor co-chairman of the committee, and a politician running for president may possibly try to make himself look good. All of this could have been avoided with cooperation and discussion in the talk section. Let’s work together, proceeding in a manner to first establish key facts. Thanks all. I will restore the deleted information. Please do not delete the information without specific justifications in the talk section,. Please submit changes a section at a time, and I, and I hope others, will be happy to go over changes or proposed changes and once we get the facts down, we can work together for moves. ToTheCircus (talk) 04:31, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

To respond to your new specifics:

• Whether it was you or someone else who wrote the original material, it's still true that it's missing much of the history and perspective of this issue, which I have started to address in Vietnam War POW/MIA issue.
• In Vietnam War POW/MIA issue, I've replaced the quote from the website with one from McConnell and Schweitzer's Inside Hanoi's Secret Archives: Solving the MIA Mystery that gets the same point across. I'll do the same here in the summary section, once the overall dispute over material location gets resolved. That was the only place where that website was used as a source.
• Per a number of sources, not just McCain biographies, McCain was the third-most prominent member of the Senate committee, after Kerry and Smith. Also from many sources, McCain was a key player in Vietnam normalization. There's no reason not to use these sources, along with many others. McCain didn't first run for president until 2000, a number of years after the committee (1991-93) and Vietnam normalization (1994-95) took place.

As for the article location question, I believe there is no Wikipedia guideline that says that new material can only be added a section at a time, and that it has to be discussed in the wrong place before it can be located in the right place. I will set up an RfC on this, so we can hear the views of others. Wasted Time R (talk) 15:11, 21 December 2008 (UTC)[reply]

Regrettably, I have once again had to restore the content. Please, let us all work together, with care taken not to belittle the contributions of others. If there is objection to the material, propose a change and justify it in the talk section. The language that I have restored was worked out by compromise over a long period of time. If there is no objection to the content that has been restored, we can work out a move of the restored content. I don't think any of us have a problem in splitting up the subject into reasonable sections. But it seems clear from the comments that people have strong opinions regarding CONTENT, yet so far have been unwilling to make specific suggestions and justification regarding specific changes. I strongly suggest we address any problems with the content now in a respectful manner. It's clear that's the real issue. ToTheCircus (talk) 00:44, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Yes, there are both location and content issues. Your version that you keep putting in is both the wrong content and the wrong location. There is no evidence on this talk page that your version was "worked out by compromise over a long period of time". I have bent over backwards to include most of your version as part of the material at Vietnam War POW/MIA issue. You refuse to accept any content other than your own version. You have just edit warred endlessly here without respect to any of the views expressed by other editors in this RfC or before it. Wasted Time R (talk) 01:01, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I've just reverted this action as the discussion of the material is going on here, and there seems to be no other editors who support this material. I also see no evidence of any 'compromise over a long period of time' and labeling the removal of the material as being 'vandalism' is highly unhelpful. Nick-D (talk) 01:10, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

If you had checked the history of the article OR the history in the talk section, you would see the material had been worked out up until November 23, 2008. There wasn't time for you to have looked very hard. It's clearly one person trying to do a complete rewrite of what was there without specific justification-vandalism. ToTheCircus (talk) 01:43, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The entire talk history is available on this page, and shows a disagreement between you and wasted history and complaints by a couple of IP editors that the article was biased. There's no evidence of any prior compromise as you claim, and edit warring instead of participating in the current discussion is not very productive. Nick-D (talk) 01:55, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The compromise that I was referring to was the history of numerous contributors working together to come up with an end product, as opposed to Wasted Time R unilaterally pronouncing the topic would be at another location and doing a complete rewrite. For example, one person writes what one side of a topic says, and a different person writes another side. I'd used different words before in the talk section instead of the word compromise--my meaning was working together as a community. I'm sorry about that not being clear. I was not referring to compromise in the talk section, if you go back in the talk section you will see despite numerous requests for Wasted Time R to specifically justify deletions or add material in sections rather than do a complete rewrite, he would settle for nothing less than his own complete rewrite. So there was no compromise at all by Wasted Time R, or compromise between the two of us. If anyone at anytime, without justification, could delete facts and introduce all kinds of inaccuracies in mass as he did, all of Wikipedia would quickly be a real mess. People could just go back and forth with complete rewrites. I will revert to what had been previously established, and I still hope he can come up with some kind of specific justification in the talk area so we can hash out a fair and accurate product. I will volunteer as much time as is needed so that we can get all of the facts straight. ToTheCircus (talk) 03:06, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The supposed "numerous contributors" put together this version of the article, that I first saw and started trying to rememdy in January 2008, a year ago. That article was a one-sided portrayal of this issue that was in violation of WP:NPOV, WP:RS, and WP:Undue weight among other guidelines. There is no indication in the talk pages that anyone other than POW/MIA "live prisoners" believers had contributed to it, and the other side of this issue was not portrayed in that version of the article at all. Nor was much of the history of issue adequately covered. Your current version is no better. Just because an article was in a bad state for period of time, doesn't mean it gets to stay in a bad state. Wasted Time R (talk) 03:29, 4 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I honestly can't see why anyone could object to having a dedicated article re. the Vietnam MIA issue. Now that this has been done, it has vastly improved the credibility and clarity of the existing MIA article. A perfectly reasonable compromise has been made i.e. the current MIA article provides a brief summary of the Vietnam issues, plus a hyperlink to the dedicated Vietnam MIA article. There is no need to keep reverting to the Vietnam-biased version. Now, Vietnam conspiracy theorists have their own dedicated article where they can expound whatever theories they please, however unusual those theories may appear to others:-

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vietnam_War_POW/MIA_issue

Earlier complaints that the general MIA article were biased towards the USA perspective were absolutely true. The unwarranted emphasis on Vietnam MIAs damaged the credibility of the general MIA article. Consider: how can the MIA Wikipedia article be viewed as an authoritative source by all nations across the world if the American perspective (provided by a highly vocal minority) receives the heaviest emphasis? In truth, the issue of MIAs is something which affects any nation which has ever raised an army, not just Americans in Vietnam. Here are a few examples:-

Germans WW2 (dead): http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/08/19/1061261148926.html?from=storyrhs

Japanese WW2 (all dead): http://www.pacificwrecks.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1217

Australian WW1 (dead): http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-News/UK-Student-Finds-Skeleton-of-WW1-Soldier/Article/200808315082229

British [from 1461 Wars of The Roses] (dead) http://www.brad.ac.uk/acad/archsci/depart/resgrp/towton/

American aircrew [from 1944] (dead): http://www.arlingtoncemetery.net/wwii-crew-04161944.htm

I sincerely hope that the revert-war will now stop. Those who claim that de-emphasising the Vietnam MIA issue is "vandalism" mistake passion for insight. There's a whole world outside the USA. Wikipedia is an international resource that needs to be respected for its balanced coverage of any topic it contains. Otherwise, people will vote with their feet and ignore what it says. - Nabokov (talk) 13:20, 5 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

As I believe I have made very clear in previous discussions, having information from as many possible countries is to be encouraged. The problem has been that Wasted Time R has deleted facts without specific justification, and has introduced a large quantity of false information, extremely biased information, and personal opinion. When I restored the info and brought up the vandalism, he repeated it. I have made many offers for him to submit his proposed deletions and additions in manageable portions so that they could be reviewed by all. I believe that even a minimal effort to work together would have cleared up a lot of the false statements that have been introduced at the other locations. Let’s get the facts established. Please submit proposed changes a section at a time, and stop the vandalism. If anyone presents material that is factual and presents different sides of a topic in balance, and avoids insulting and demeaning statements, that material should be accepted without any problems. There is no reason to introduce demeaning information. I’ll restore what has been vandalized—let’s get to work on the facts. What’s the harm in allowing for scrutiny of information? ToTheCircus (talk) 23:29, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Please do not revert again - there has been no support here for your preferred version. Nick-D (talk) 23:31, 10 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I hoped the revert-war was over. Unfortunately, Nick-D has had to intervene yet again. Nick-D is absolutely right: there is no support for the old version. There is an article dedicated exclusively to Vietnam POW/MIA issues <<< RIGHT HERE >>> so there's absolutely no need to keep re-introducing the heavy emphasis on the Vietnam War. A compromise has been made by providing people who have a passionate interest in Vietnam POW/MIA issues with their own, dedicated article. The current MIA article briefly summarises Vietnam-related issues, and provides a hyperlink to much more extensive coverage of the subject. To any reasonable person, this should be sufficient. - Nabokov (talk) 22:36, 11 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

False and misleading, and insulting/extremely biased information has been introduced at more than one location relating to this topic. No one has come out and said they support false, misleading, or extremely biased information. Yet the vandalism continues. Please stop. Is anyone willing to consider the facts in discusion, as should be done? ToTheCircus (talk) 21:02, 19 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

ToTheCircus, if you look at the comments other editors have made about the content above, you'll see that no one else shares your belief about the content. Nobody shares your characterization that this is "vandalism". The one-sided depiction of this issue that you would like, you're not going to be able to get, and if you keep reverting this article, you'll just keep getting blocked, and then you won't be able to present your views at all. If you're willing to accept an article that presents both sides of this issue, side by side, then I can work with you on it. But the consensus is that it will have to be at Vietnam War POW/MIA issue, not here. You say you want to go through section-by-section, fine. Start with what happened in the 1970s, meaning what is covered in the "Origins" section of Vietnam War POW/MIA issue, and see what it is that you don't like in that section, or what it is that you think is missing from it. Discuss it at Talk:Vietnam War POW/MIA issue. And proceed from there. But the current road you're on isn't going to get you anywhere. Wasted Time R (talk) 04:35, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Wasted Time is right: there's no absolutely no support whatsoever for repeatedly reverting to a version of the MIA article which places undue emphasis on the Vietnam MIA issue. A dedicated article covering the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue has been created, and editors are free to put whatever theories/facts they please in there. That is a perfectly reasonable compromise. However, in the main MIA article (which covers the generic phenomenon of MIAs) a balanced point of view must prevail. Vietnam will always get a mention in the main MIA article, but it's not going to receive the main emphasis. Nick-D's recent reversion (i.e. re-introducing a balanced POV) was definitely not "vandalism". Nick-D did the right thing and I fully support his action. - Nabokov (talk) 15:02, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You are not addressing the false, misleading, biased, and insulting information introduced by Wasted Time R. Where to put things is a secondary matter, which Wasted Time R knows well. It's really about whether he can go and delete valid information that was the product of work over a long period of time, and introduce his own personal version-chock full of false, unsupportable, and insulting information. If you go back in the discussion, the personal attacks against me by him started long ago. The fact that he refuses to go over the information here is telling. Why is he gone? Are you acquaintences of his? What has he told you? I ask this because none of you seem to be addressing the content, which is what this is about? Do you really want to support the spreading of false information on the issue? If he could support the information, he would have taken up my numerous offers to go over the information. Now we have a complete mess of false and demeaning information at numerous locations. Let's go over the basic facts, get them straight, and agree on emphasis. This is where the artcicle has been, Wasted Time has chosen to avoid scrutiny, create his own personal version, and then say that is where things will be. Could anyone just go and create their own version of something he has worked on, McCain or Hillary Clinton sites, and then say that is now the main area? You see, that would destroy all the work of others, and allow one person to get their own personal version of events in--hardly in keeping with the supposed spirit of Wikipeidia. PLEASE STOP THE VANDALISM! ToTheCircus (talk) 16:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I see the article has been reverted once again by ToTheCircus. The version favoured by ToTheCircus puts an unusually heavy emphasis on Vietnam MIAs. There's two lines of intro on the topic, then it's straight into American issues and Vietnam. In reality, the phenomenon of MIAs is not an exclusively American issue. As has been previous explained, MIAs are a universal problem which affects any nation that has ever raised an army. Large numbers of MIAs first became notable during WW1, WW2 and the Korean War i.e. considerably earlier than Vietnam. To put things in perspective, a single battle during WW1 could create more MIAs than all the KIA & MIA created during the Vietnam war. If people doubt this, take a long hard look at the Thiepval Memorial to the Missing of the Somme, which commemorates the names of over 72,000 allied MIAs in that 1916 battle. And that's just one memorial to MIAs from WW1 - there are others. I believe the undue emphasis on Vietnam era MIAs insisted on by ToTheCircus is perverse and should be fixed. Useful edits which provide balanced coverage of the topic are removed whenever ToTheCircus reverts. The issue of MIAs is not synonymous with Vietnam to most people, though doubtless it is to Vietnam activists. There were many other allied MIAs from WW1, WW2 and Korea - and that's not even including enemy combatants such as the Germans, Italians and Japanese - plus the Viet Cong MIAs in Vietnam. It is tiresome to see constant accusations of vandalism, when all the other editors are trying to do is maintain a balanced POV. There is already a dedicated article which covers the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue in great detail. However, ToTheCircus has yet to make any edits to the Vietnam War POW/MIA issue article. - Nabokov (talk) 18:17, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

I have consistently promoted adding information about MIAs from other countries. Please, all, add information about MIAs from other countries. Time wasted complaining about it could be better used by researching the subject and adding edits. Unfortunately, Wasted Time R deleted information without justification, and added much false, misleading, and insulting information at various locations. So the statement that "all the other editors are trying to do is maintain a balance POV" is false. Wasted Time R and other keep reverting to the Wasted Time R version, instead of adding material a section at a time and justifying deletions--instead of working together to come up with a factual and balanced article. Once again my point was not addressed, and the questions I asked were very carefully avoided. Let me quote from my previous statement "Could anyone just go and create their own version of something he has worked on, McCain or Hillary Clinton sites, and then say that is now the main area? You see, that would destroy all the work of others, and allow one person to get their own personal version of events in--hardly in keeping with the supposed spirit of Wikipedia (sic)." ToTheCircus (talk) 21:25, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

"I have consistently promoted adding information about MIAs from other countries. Please, all, add information about MIAs from other countries." Good, because I've just corrected the heavy bias towards America and Americans in the Vietnam section by adding information re. Viet Cong MIAs and also MIAs from the earlier French colonial era. I'm sure you'll approve of this, given that you have consistently promoted adding information about MIAs from other countries. - Nabokov (talk) 21:58, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

You have added it to the version of the vandal instead of to the established version! You don't answer my questions or address my points. That's not working together. It seems that only the Wasted Time R versions of events, no matter how much false information they contain, are acceptable to you. Are you a friend of his? What is wrong with working together, a section at a time, to establish a fair and balanced factual structure? I cannot by conscience be a party to the establishment of false, misleading, and insulting information. Add the information to the established version if you wish to work together. I understand he may be a friend of yours, but he is way out of line in this case. I encourage you to quit vandalizing the established version and to work together. ToTheCircus (talk) 22:15, 20 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

The fine work during January by Wasted Time R and Nabokov has produced an excellent product. HowardMorland (talk) 19:04, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Thanks, but credit goes mostly to Nabokov. I felt justified in finally taking the 'lacks worldwide context' and 'cleanup' tags off. Wasted Time R (talk) 23:01, 28 January 2009 (UTC)[reply]

Would it be notable to mention a 1994 U.S. stamp about P.O.W. / M.I.A.? See http://stores.bobscollections.com/Detail.bok?no=76

--Scriberius (talk) 17:39, 3 August 2010 (UTC)[reply]

This article seems to be written from an American point of view, in that it only mentions wars in which the US has been involved, and from the 'Cold War' section onwards, only mentions American MIAs. The imbalance is particularly obvious in the Vietnam section, which has many paragraphs about the search for the approximately 2,000 missing Americans, and only briefly mentions that 300,000 Vietnamese are still missing as well. Imbalances like this are to some extent inevitable in an English-language encyclopaedia mainly written by Americans, but this article could really do with expansion to talk about MIAs from other countries. Robofish (talk) 12:30, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

A couple of editors try to keep a more global perspective, but you're right, it keeps drifting back to being U.S.-centric. I've started a section on the Iran-Iraq War, however. Wasted Time R (talk) 14:00, 4 July 2011 (UTC)[reply]

Portions of the text in the first paragraph are covered by an Infobox. Is it my browser (IE9)? NOTE: No Edit Summary box. Respectfully, Tiyang (talk) 07:12, 26 September 2012 (UTC)[reply]

The article opens with "Missing in action (MIA) is a casualty Category assigned under the Status of Missing to armed services personnel who are reported missing ...". Why the capitalization of "Category" and "Status" and "Missing"? (Please see MOS:CAPS: "Wikipedia avoids unnecessary capitalization".) —BarrelProof (talk) 20:27, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

Incidentally, the sentence also seems rather strangely phrased. Why isn't it in more plain English? – e.g., it could be: "Missing in action (MIA) is the status assigned to armed services personnel who are reported missing during active service." or "Missing in action (MIA) is a term used to refer to armed services personnel who are reported missing during active service." —BarrelProof (talk) 20:36, 18 August 2013 (UTC)[reply]

The problem was fixed by an edit of 04:15, 26 October 2013‎. (Thank you to Jscorp.) —BarrelProof (talk) 19:31, 7 February 2014 (UTC)[reply]

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The statement that "Becoming MIA has been an occupational risk for as long as there has been warfare" is unnecessary and unencyclopaedic.Royalcourtier (talk) 05:12, 17 February 2016 (UTC)[reply]

note on dpaa website: http://www.dpaa.mil/Our-Missing/Past-Conflicts/ "Reflects actual number still unaccounted-for. PMKOR database count is slightly higher due to several entries pending administrative review". — Preceding unsigned comment added by 50.5.80.135 (talk) 19:00, 20 December 2016 (UTC)[reply]

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It is suggested that some participants in the Battle of Thermopylae may have ended up MIA. What is special about Thermopylae? It seems just as likely that participants in the many earlier battles of which we have knowledge also became MIA.Bill (talk) 05:58, 9 March 2021 (UTC)[reply]