Battle of Honey Springs

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I am not sure if this is an appropriate question: Can we "mix" First Nations musicians with Native American musicians in this list? This is in reference to Jerry Alfred being removed. I ask because "First Nations people have been refered to as ... Natice Americans" (see article on First Nations). If not, then I think the template to the right needs to be changed. If so, then Cree, Inuit, etc. can be added to this list. The first sentense could mention the extent of peoples who are to be included, as well. An extension of this question is whether Central and South American Indians belong on a list like this as well. Smmurphy^(Talk) 04:59, 2 January 2006 (UTC)[reply]

I put Alfred back in for now. Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:33, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

That describe them as Native American:

• Aaliyah

Mad Jack 19:29, 27 August 2006 (UTC)[reply]

Douglas Bluefeather needs a source also. He has no affiliation with any recognize Cherokee tribe at all. He claims a DNA samnple makes him cherokee. Tribes do not accept DNA tests.

What about non Native Americans who play Native American music/flutes in and not in Native American fashion? I am thinking of Werner John. In particular is Cedar Song, and he has mp3 samples (sample: Canon)at his web site. Oh, he makes the Native American flutes he uses by himself. Of course he sells his recordings and he sell his flutes, but the commercial nature of his enterprise should not, in my opinion, drown out the beauty of his music produced on handmade Native American flutes often with Native American themes. Besides, many names already listed are in the entertainment business as well. And of course a new section should be provided, rather than melding him in with Native Americans, perhaps entitled Non Native Americans Playing Native American Music (or Flutes if a narrowing down is needed). How about that? --LegitimateAndEvenCompelling 02:28, 21 November 2006 (UTC)[reply]

That would mean this list should be about "Native American musicians and musicians who predominately play music in styles usually associated with Native Americans." Another work around would be creating a new article, Native America flutists, but that would leave us with a pretty strong category-list overlap, so we'd need to show that a list is useful in this case. Smmurphy^(Talk) 18:41, 13 September 2007 (UTC)[reply]

I'm trying to organize the list, I think I will cull it a bit, too. I'm thinking of organization similar to List of Polish musicians. If you think this is a bad idea, let me know. All the redlinks are over two months old, so I'm cutting them, too. If anyone wants to add them back, that is fine. If what is added back in can be stubbed, try to do that, too. Also, I added a redlink based on the December afd of "official NA musicians" which talked about the IAaCL of 1990. Smmurphy^(Talk) 23:25, 9 March 2007 (UTC)[reply]

What does the abbreviation "NTA" mean? It should be spelled out in full on first usage. Latr, Katr 16:23, 19 June 2007 (UTC)[reply]

2-1/4 years after you asked, "NTA" stands for "non-tribally affiliated," i.e. unenrolled. -Uyvsdi (talk) 05:30, 8 October 2009 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Someone more versed than I please make the changes to the page text. If I try I'll mess things up and someone will have to fix two things.

0. First Nations vs. Native Americans: Both are constructs based on the colonization. If one is referred to by their Nation (a "tribe" being between nation and clan in size), they tend to forgive this little detail. If the title page needs fixed, to be equitable a redirect page for each of Native American and First Nations, pointing to a combined-title page would work. Some of us prefer 'resident of Turtle Island' but we'd be pretty much the only ones to know what we mean.

1. Tina Turner needs removed. See her page linked from here, re: DNA evidence. Unless we can trade the Cherokee her for Cher.

2. It is inappropriate to refer to someone as "part" something. Two heritages is two of entire heritages. Similar to having dual citizenship, you can't be half a citizen of a place. Please remove the word as needed.

3. Add Elvis Presley (Cherokee) Pop/Rock. Elvis was not Cherokee and had no tribal affiliation or proof. That is a rumor. Felipe Rose says he is Lakota but before he said he was Taino. Another wannabe. Janice from a Taste of Honey actually is Nativie.

4. Bill Miller is a flute player, but is far more a guitarist and composer in the pop/rock line.

5. Joanne Shenandoah (Oneida). Hard to classify: started in country, went to pop and folk, then combined New Age and traditional, the last being where I believe she'd want to be listed. Or just count her awards http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joanne_Shenandoah Someone enterprising may want to edit that page too: her ancestor John Skenando didn't just rally some Iroquois to George Washington's cause. He led a small army of them carrying corn to feed Washington's troops where they were starving and freezing at Valley Forge. Without Skanando, we may well have had no George Washington after that winter, and no victory over the British.

6. Add Dr. Cornel Pewewardy (Comanche/Kiowa). A flute player as listed on http://www.hanksville.org/storytellers/pewe/ but I've heard a great deal more of his jazz oriented brass than anything else.

7. Add Ricky Medlock of Lynyrd Skynyrd (Blackfoot)

8. Add "the Indian" from The Village People; Felipe Rose (Lakota) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Felipe_Rose

9. Add Janice Marie Johnson of A Taste Of Honey (Stockbridge-Munsee-Mohican). Put her under pop/rock because nobody wants there to be a disco (Get Down, Boogie Oogie Oogie) catergory

10 and 11. Add Loretta Lynn and her 18 year junior sister Crystal Gayle (Cherokee) Country and Country

12 and 13. Add Hank Williams and Hank Williams Jr. (Muskogee Creek/Cherokee) Country and Country Jr.

Side issue: if someone would care to add it and handle the permissions thing, I have a photo of Redbone that could be added to their page, with permission from its owner Pat St. John, now on Sirius

That's enough for now, more later. Dr. Dennis McClain-Furmanski PhD (Lost Bird, presumed Sault Chippewa) Producer and DJ, "Inside The Circle" WUVT, Blacksburg VA and Nammie member, 1998-2002

Drmcclainphd (talk) 03:32, 24 September 2009 (UTC) drmcclainphd@gmail.com[reply]

Is this a list of musicians of indigenous peoples of all the Americas? If so, the name needs to be changed? Or is this a list of Native American musicians in the United States? If so, several names need to be pulled. Either way, just need some consistency. -Uyvsdi (talk) 19:32, 16 July 2012 (UTC)Uyvsdi[reply]

Unfortunately, "American" has become to mean anything concerning the United States. I do not like it, but I can't deny the fact. 212.50.203.198 (talk) 16:47, 4 October 2013 (UTC)[reply]

In addition to the problem with the title itself, this article's text introduction also explicitly states that the list is intended specifically for musicians from the United States rather than the Americas as a whole. The problem with "Native American" remains that it carries an ambiguity — while certainly some people do use it as inclusive of all aboriginal peoples on the entirety of both the North and South American continents, it's much more commonly used in an "exclusive to the United States" context. Whether anybody agrees with that restricted meaning or not is a moot point; Wikipedia's role is to reflect the way words are used, not to make cultural pronouncements about the way words should be used.

There's no clear precedent either way for how to handle such a situation, but rather we handle this differently in different situations: for writers, we have a common transnational list at the title List of writers from peoples indigenous to the Americas, while for many other occupations we have separate lists for separate countries (e.g. List of Native American actors is restricted to the United States specifically, while Canadian actors of aboriginal heritage are listed at List of First Nations actors instead.) But in no situation does Wikipedia simply use "Native American" as a transnational term that's inclusive of Canadian and Mexican and South American aboriginal peoples as well — when we want to go transnational instead of country-specific for an aboriginal topic, we use terminologies that avoid the ambiguity of "Native American". Accordingly, I've removed all the non-US musicians from the list, except for a couple of people (Buffy Ste-Marie, Robbie Robertson) who have legitimate reasons to be included in a US-specific list as well as a Canadian-specific one.

If a transnational list that's inclusive of all aboriginal peoples in North America and/or South America is desired, then it would certainly be legitimate to move this list to a more explicitly transnational title and rescope its introduction — but adding non-US musicians to the list, while simultaneously leaving the title and introduction as scoped to the US only, is not correct or appropriate. Bearcat (talk) 17:15, 17 December 2014 (UTC)[reply]

We need to start sourcing this. Authors lists are sourced, this should be, too. - CorbieV^☊☼ 22:53, 5 June 2015 (UTC)[reply]

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Why are people without sourcing being added back? I thought we agreed only sourced people should be on this list? - CorbieVreccan ^☊ ☼ 00:06, 25 May 2021 (UTC)[reply]

Sounds good to me. Seems like all these types of lists get filled with faux entries. Icecube77 (talk) 22:17, 25 May 2021 (UTC)Icecube77[reply]

Please add. 2001:5B0:51C3:E498:ECE7:F761:F4AF:BA4E (talk) 23:58, 13 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]

Her article doesn't document that she was a musician in any way; it just ascribes her with acting and dancing, not musicmaking. So what's the basis for including her in a list of musicians, exactly? Bearcat (talk) 15:09, 14 February 2022 (UTC)[reply]