Fort Towson

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved. (non-admin closure)  samee  converse  10:45, 12 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Heresy in Christianity → Orthodoxy and heresy in Christianity – I suggest to move this page to "Orthodoxy and heresy in Christianity". Since Walter Bauer, it's not neutral tyo have a separate page on "heresy" as if it is a stand-alone category. "Heresy" has to be defined in relation to "orhtodoxy." It also would offer a better workable frame to improve this page. See also Diversity in early Christian theology and Proto-orthodox Christianity, which are related issues for early Christianity. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 04:46, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. It's consistent with the Heresy in Judaism and Bid'ah articles. Orthodoxy can also vary within Christianity, and this article is focused on the dissenters and their dissenting, not the specific faiths experiencing dissent. People aren't going to come here looking for information about what Christian Orthodoxy is. Safrolic (talk) 19:41, 5 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Comment - the article "Heresy in Christianity" appears to be more about Catholic approaches to heresy than about describing the beliefs and practices of the groups labelled heretical - there is also List of movements declared heretical by the Catholic Church (which is woefully incomplete), as well as "Diversity in early Christian theology". The term "heretic" is pejorative and its use discouraged by WP:LABEL. Rather than "Heresy in Christianity," the article should be renamed "Suppression of heresy by the Catholic Church," as it is about the views of the Catholic Church, not about Christianity, as the groups condemned thought of themselves as Christians - cheers - Epinoia (talk) 03:49, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

Looking at the history, I see that proposer has made significant edits to the article, changing its scope. Those changes may deserve looking over by someone familiar with the topic, before this move request proceeds. Safrolic (talk) 04:53, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Safrolic: please explain how the scope was changed. I basically shortened the lead, removed unsourced/ubdue info, divided the article in more sections, and re-ordered some of the info. That's about it.

Please also explain according to which policy Those changes may deserve looking over by someone familiar with the topic, before this move request proceeds. Your comment is suggestive of improper behavior on my side; it doesn't feel good. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:07, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I'm sorry, I don't mean to accuse you of improper behaviour! I only meant that the content on orthodoxy may be better suited to an article specifically about Christian Orthodoxy, but less specific than the existing articles on specific orthodox churches. I always find it hard to follow diffs when many sections are being created or moved around, so I wasn't sure how much content is yours and how much was just moved around. Safrolic (talk) 05:29, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

@Safrolic: okay; thanks. Odd thing is that there are several pages on heresy in Christianity, but no separate article on Orthodoxy in Christianity. This page is a natural place to combine the two; see also Epinoia's comments on neutrality. Joshua Jonathan -Let's talk! 05:49, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

I don't think they need to be combined, personally. We have articles on Crime in the United States and Criminal law of the United States, but even though criminal law can vary within the United States, and crime is defined by being a violation of a law, nobody wants to combine them. An article on Orthodoxy in Christianity could be a great idea to start, though. Re: Epinoia's original comment on neutrality, WP:LABEL says we should avoid giving specific groups/people pejorative labels, not that we should avoid titling articles about those pejorative labels with their own names. We've got an article on Cults, but not an article on Cult of Scientology. I think it would be pejorative to have an article like Priscillian (Christian heretic), but I don't think it's pejorative to talk about the concept of heresy in Christianity itself. (And, if it was, adding "and Orthodoxy" wouldn't help) Safrolic (talk) 06:12, 6 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

• Oppose. The article would require at least a partial rewrite for it to fit the proposed new title. If someone wanted to draft a new version of this article to replace it, that could work, though. --Comment by Selfie City (talk about my contributions) 15:44, 7 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose Out of scope for this article to define orthodoxy. Dimadick (talk) 20:55, 8 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]
• Oppose I tend to think of Heterodoxy, not Heresy, as the opposite of Orthodoxy. Heresy differs from heterodoxy in two ways, one, being a more extreme form of the latter, and two, having to be announced as such by a recognized authority (Ecumenical Coucil, Papal encyclical). (Put another way, simply accusing someone of heresy amounts to name-calling, and doesn't make them one.) That's one reason that heresy really only exists in Catholicism and not in Protestantism, because the formal declaration by Catholic authority is a performative utterance: it is the formal declaration itself that makes an idea heretical, not its content; before the declaration, it was merely controversial (or heterodox). Protestantism doesn't have a unified, authoritative body that can make such pronouncements, and therefore the word heterodox is generally preferred in formal context. There's another reason not to change the title that is related to the concept of deviance; namely, you can't have a concept of deviant behavior, without having a concept of "correct" or acceptable norm of behavior from which it can deviate; but it isn't necessary to title articles on different types of deviance with the "normal" word in the title as well; it's a given that the deviant behavior will be discussed in the context of norms from which such behavior departs. Heterodoxy, in this analogy, is deviant belief (or writings), and you don't have to entitle the article "Heterodoxy and orthodoxy", because it's obvious that the former requires the latter, otherwise, "deviant from what?" Same thing here. Continuing the "deviant" metaphor, heresy is a "deviant idea about Catholic dogma that has been formalized in a performative utterance by a duly consituted authority of the Church." Mathglot (talk) 07:40, 9 April 2019 (UTC)[reply]

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.