Battle of Backbone Mountain

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This review is transcluded from Talk:Robert F. Utter/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Eddie891 (talk · contribs) 22:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hi, I can take this review on over the days to come. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:42, 1 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Comments

• the Lede needs to be expanded
• The short paragraphs could be combined into larger ones for aesthetics.
• There should be some sort of illustration or something, whether it's an infobox or picture of another person in the body, or of him, just something.
• Source formatting should be looked over, i.e. Cite #1 and 2 are the same source, only #2 is well formatted, and cite #5 is the Moscow-Pullman Daily News via Google News Archive, not from it. Please look at these, there are more.
• If you're using cite #1 as a RS, would seem to be a lot more information from it that can be incorporated, though I haven't closely read through it.

I'll return for a more thorough review soon. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:26, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Lede expanded, infobox added, refs #1 and #2 combined, and #5 (now #4) cleaned up DannyS712 (talk) 22:04, 2 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

(talk page stalker) The article is very short, at less than 2,500 bytes of prose, therefore it is at risk of being merged or redirected into an article. As a general rule of thumb, I am sceptical that any article with less than 4,000 bytes of prose can meet the "broad in coverage" part of the GA criteria, but I'm willing to listen to persuasive arguments otherwise in this case. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 11:00, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Yeah, it is really short, and thanks for bringing that up, Ritchie. I plan to spend about an hour to an hour and a half looking into comprehensiveness later today and will report back here what I find. Of course, other stuff exists should not be taken as a definitive answer, but we do have extremely short articles that are GAs. Look, for instance at this PetScan query. Based on that, should I pass this article, it would be right around the 600th shortest GA. So, I don't necessarily see a problem based on size alone, and I'll look into what the sourcing says. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 11:40, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• try ping again, Ritchie333 Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 11:43, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• OK, here's the results:

• You cite a Seattle Times Obituary three different times, three different ways, yet they are all different articles? Am I missing something here? I'm concerned about the reliability of the Legacy.com obit, it reads like a pay to print article
• Seattle Times (cited in article): In 2008, he was part of a team that spent five weeks talking with members of the United Nations’ International Criminal Tribunal for Rwanda after the genocide in that country in 1994 to learn of their experiences. There's some detail here that could be added into the article
• Seattle Times (cited in article) co-founded the Seattle chapter of Big Brothers in 1958 and His cancer had metastasized and he also had Parkinson’s disease. and “helped launched a Thurston-Mason chapter in 1982 and played a key role in the YMCA’s Youth & Government program, which in 1997 named its top award in his honor and had written an opinion in 1978 that established a battered woman’s right to self-defense. And he led a King County task force in 1997 that led to therapeutic courts that focused on mental health. and Utter is survived by his wife, Betty; three adult children including John, Kirk and Kimberly; and four grandchildren. (his wife is mentioned, but not sourced in the article)
• The Spokesman Review (1) Accused of being 'soft on crime', some good substance about his term. Also a decent image that could be uploaded under fair use
• The Spokesman Review (2) called 'youngest chief justice', some substance about that
• A 181 page interview that I feel is worth skimming to see if there's anything major to add. The main thing, though, is that there's a very good image to use under Fair Use. I'd avoid using this as a source though, because I think the Washington Secretary of State is based on this one, and is likely reviewed to a higher standard, so don't spend an absurd amount of time reading over it. Please do provide a link to it under the 'External Links' section
• The Washington Post "The state Supreme Court justice who stepped down to protest the death penalty" which has at least some detail
• Washington Review Online (1) "Justice Robert Utter, the Supreme Court of Washington, and the New Judicial Federalism: Judging and Teaching?" Has got to have some info worth adding
• Loyola University Chicago Law Journal "Commentary on Capital Punishment: Is There Any Habeas Left in This Corpus?" p. 532.
• The Marshall Project article. Should be considered reliable
• Washington Review Online (2) article is by Ronald K. L. Collins, perhaps you can snag a quote or sentence or two, otherwise place in external links/further reading, please
• INDEPENDENCE FOR WASHINGTON STATE'S PRIVILEGES AND IMMUNITIES CLAUSE Zellers, P Andrew Rorholm.Washington Law Review; Seattle Vol. 87, Iss. 1, (Mar 2012): 331-367. There's a good deal of stuff in this article, you can access it through WP:TWL or perhaps online
• Election results
• This profile seems to have a lot more info, are you sure there's nothing that can be added
• There are several articles that I've not been able to access but look promising. Please check them out or request them from The resource exchange

• Jim Muhlstein, Act of Conscience: Justice Utter Resigns, Says Death Penalty Fatally Flawed, THE HERALD (Everett, Wash.), Mar. 30, 1995, at A1. Cited in the Loyola article
• WHERE ARE THEY NOW? THE NEWS TRIBUNE CHECKS IN WITH SOME OF THE NEWSMAKERS OF 1995: ROBERT UTTER Patti Epler / The News Tribune.The News Tribune; Tacoma, Wash. [Tacoma, Wash]31 Dec 1995: B.3: Headline seems promising
• VOLUNTEER, FORMER JUSTICE RECOGNIZED FOR PUBLIC SAFETY -- CRIME COUNCIL HONORS UTTER, SCHROEDER from The Seattle Times, mentions that he "received the Mark Cooper Leadership Award for Lifetime Achievement", not sure if that's worth a mention or not
• REVOLT FROM THE BENCH / UTTER LEAVES COURT MONDAY IN PROTEST OF DEATH PENALTY Patti Epler / The News Tribune.The News Tribune; Tacoma, Wash. [Tacoma, Wash]23 Apr 1995: B.1.
• UTTER'S DEPARTURE A LOSS: [FINAL Edition] Seattle Times; Seattle, Wash. [Seattle, Wash]30 Mar 1995: B10.

There's a lot of junk about minor cases that he was involved in, that I'm gonna decline to put here, see this for a sample. There's a good amount of stuff here, I'm happy to give you as much time as you need to sift through it. Let me know if you need me to e-mail copies of any/all sourcing. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:46, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Update: I've requested the newspapers for us at REX, DannyS712. They are pretty common papers, so somebody should be able to get access soon. Also, please give a time frame for how long you expect sifting to take. A day? A week? A month? I know I kinda dumped a lot here and probably all of it isn't useful, so take your time. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:56, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Eddie891: Wow, that is a lot. Thanks for all of your work. I'll start going through it, not sure on a time frame yet - maybe a week? I also removed the legacy.com ref DannyS712 (talk) 21:59, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DannyS712, a week works, but please don’t feel rushed. I’ve gotten four of the five sources that are offline, so if you are comfortable emailing me, I can send them your way. Best wishes, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 22:45, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Sure (my email is pretty public, since it is attached to all of the coding I do for mediawiki: dannys172.enwiki@gmail.comdannys712.enwiki@gmail.com) DannyS712 (talk) 22:48, 3 August 2020 (UTC) Email fixed --DannyS712 (talk) 00:08, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DannyS712, Sent, also check out this article instead of the Act of Conscience one, it will likely have all the worthwhile detail, if it isn't the same article. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 23:32, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Woops, the email I wrote is wrong - it should be 712, sorry DannyS712 (talk) 23:36, 3 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DannyS712 re-sent. Teach me to blindly copy and paste... Best wishes, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
  • Got it, thanks DannyS712 (talk) 00:07, 4 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
    • I've added some more. A lot of the mentions are similar about his opposition to the death penalty and resignation, but there wasn't much variety in what they said. I found a good piece about his reaction to the moratorium on executions though DannyS712 (talk) 01:38, 5 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

More detailed comments

• Sincerest apologies for losing track of this, DannyS712 I got caught up in other things on-wiki. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Cite #1 probably isn't needed in the lede anymore
• "He then his law degree" doesn't quite make sense
• battered woman syndrome is worth a link
• "was characterized as " was characterized by who?
• It seems like there's a pretty good bit that I mention above that hasn't been added including from the sources linked above-- Have you looked at them, or just the ones I emailed you? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 13:13, 20 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Fixed law degree, link, and who characterized. Citation may not be needed, but it can't hurt. From the sources linked, I noted that "A lot of the mentions are similar about his opposition to the death penalty and resignation, but there wasn't much variety in what they said." DannyS712 (talk) 03:26, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  DannyS712: Yes, the content you added is a great start and I thank you for that. But imho there is still some content missing. You aren't looking for necessarily whole paragraphs, but there are some things that I'd like to see included. For instance, I linked a whole journal article about Utter, the court and New Judicial Federalism, yet I don't see federalism mentioned. I linked election results which would allow you to specify the votes received, and this seems to be missing. I specifically quote a source for adding Parkinson's and cancer as causes of death, which I think would benefit the article. This is just looking at three of those sources-- there's more in the others. If you don't think things need to be added, that's fine-- I'm obviously not always right-- but I'd appreciate a bit more specificity than "there wasn't much variety in what was said". Certainly not every source I give is useful, but I am pretty sure some are. If you need help about what to add, I can be more specific. If you would like, I am more than happy to expand the article directly and let you trim it down, but I'd like to see what you come up with. We're both trying to make this article 'good', so just let me know how I can best help you. Best wishes, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 12:09, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Sure, I'll make another pass through the sources DannyS712 (talk) 22:08, 21 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  @Eddie891: Where did you see that parkinson's and cancer were the cause of death? the seattle times just noted that he had both when he was giving an interview DannyS712 (talk) 00:28, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Yeah, you're right, I missed that. No cause is given. My bad Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 02:10, 22 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DannyS712, I've added a lot of the stuff myself so you can see what I was talking about. Let me know if you don't think some of it should be included. However, I think there's still more to add from this article, particularly from Section I. "JUSTICE UTTER’S BROAD ACADEMIC IMPACT" and Section II: "JUSTICE UTTER’S STATE CONSTITUTIONAL LAW OPINIONS". My prose is probably pretty rough, so however you want to mix it around is up to you. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:10, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• Other WLR articles that should be incorporated: Popular Constitutionalism and Its Enemies; I think this is a good source, not positive: [1] good content on his post-judicial career if so. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:15, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]
• As an aside, I've now contributed too much to pass this, I will ask for a second opinion eventually. Also Ritchie333 what do you think about the length now? Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 15:48, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  Sorry, real life got in the way. I'll revisit this in the next few days DannyS712 (talk) 20:58, 29 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

I trust you've looked through sufficient sources and the article can't be expanded any more, and hence meets the "broad in coverage" part of the GA criteria. The only other comment relate to that is perhaps the lead could do with a bit more, such as a mention of Brian Keith Lord and briefly his post-judicial career. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 08:43, 30 August 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DannyS712 any update? There are still some sources to look at (listed above) and the lede can be beefed up a bit, too. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 11:36, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

  I added a bit more, but I don't have any sense that anything is missing. Thank you for all of your work on the article, but at this point I think its good enough to be re-evaluated. DannyS712 (talk) 12:55, 3 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• Sure, I'll request a second opinion. I took my time in responding here because there are three points that I still feel need to be addressed
  • 1) Add a fair use image to the article
  • 2) incorporate [2], [3], [4]
  • 3) expand the lede

Anyways, that's it from me. I'll see if I can rustle up a willing 2o provider so this doesn't have to drag on any longer. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 11:14, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Second opinion (full review given)

@Eddie891 and DannyS712: - Eddie approached me about giving a second opinion on this one since an uninvolved reviewer was needed, so I'll see what I can find. Hog Farm _Bacon 14:02, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• The citation in the lead isn't needed, remove it per WP:LEADCITE
• Lead is quite a bit to short for a GA. The lead should cover all sections of the article, which this one doesn't really
• Do we have a date for the exact date that he entered office? Surely he had a swearing-in, and there's got to be coverage of a swearing-in date
• " He later cited the book as one of the main reasons for his resignation, along with the execution of Westley Allan Dodd" - It would make more sense to reference that he resigned before stating what led to his resigning
• Washington State is a dab page, because there's not really a primary topic between the state of Washington and the university. It's probably better to use a phrasing like "the state of Washington" instead of Washington State, because the latter term is ambiguous. "which was Washington State's first state constitutional law course" is probably the worst of the instances, as it really sounds like it's talking about WSU right here.
• "to help developing nations create a independent judiciaries" - I'm not convinced that the word "a" is really necessary
• "Utter died at his home in Olympia, Washington on October 15, 2014" - geographic comma after Washington
• Ref 2 needs the date
• The Marshall Project ref is by Ken Armstrong
• Ref 9 has three authors and a date
• ACLU ref needs the date
• Ref 13 needs the date
• Berman needs the date
• Be consistent - You've got Washington Secretary of State vs the website, and Washington Courts vs the website. Probably go with the organizational name, not the website when there's a clear publisher
• Ref 19 needs the date
• Ref 20 needs an accessdate
• Ref 22 needs the publisher
• Who preceeded him on the court?

Between these and adding Eddie891's sources, this ought to be at GA-level. Hog Farm _Bacon 14:24, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

• DannyS712: Just so you know, a second opinion has been offered. Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 18:20, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm  Done everything, see Special:Diff/975638111/977602584. Given how much Eddie891 did, I suggest adding them as a co-nominator / also giving them credit DannyS712 (talk) 20:52, 9 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Hog Farm my points are resolved. Over to you. Best, Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 14:57, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

DannyS712 - I've made a few small edits y'all might want to check over. There's still a few things yet, though.

• The ref titles are a mix of title case and sentence case. Pick one and be consistent.
• Ref 4 has an author, add it.
• The Williams ref needs an accessdate.
• Does Lippman have a doi or ISSN
• "Chief Justice in the history of Washington State" - This is still a slightly ambiguous usage of Washington State. It's just not a good construction, since there's no primary topic.

I think that's about it now. Hog Farm _Bacon 15:24, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Done 1-3. Not sure about 4, but I added a link to https://scholarlycommons.law.cwsl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1378&context=cwilj. For 5, I disagree that this is ambiguous. Personally I think that the actual state is the primary topic, but regardless none of the other entries at Washington State would have chief justices. Its clear from context that its referring to Washington (state) DannyS712 (talk) 17:24, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

Looks good. Passing now. (Eddie kinda has to recuse himself because of involvement, so I'll do the ceremonial part). Hog Farm _Bacon 17:30, 10 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

@Hog Farm since the bot that does so isn't working, would you mind posting the credit for the ga on my talk page? (and Eddie's if warranted?) Thanks, --DannyS712 (talk) 03:24, 14 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

HI DannyS712, great to see this on the main page! Do you think it could just be located at Robert Utter? I don't recall the sources being very particular in referring to him... Eddie891 ^Talk _Work 00:12, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]

No objections from me regarding renaming, but I would suggest waiting at least until after this leaves the main page, and perhaps after an RM lets others chime in DannyS712 (talk) 00:48, 26 September 2020 (UTC)[reply]